sylvari | (no subject)

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So I have sat here for the last hour or so staring at my screen debating what to write. There has been alot of turmoil in my life lately and while I would love to put it all down in it's start naked truth we all know that lj is not a place for truths as much as it is a place for controlled information.
Let's start with the disappointments. I am disappointed that people can't see past their own nose to help others. That helping someone does not then mean you are helped. That the people I considered community and family are so uninterested in being a community. I am disappointed in myself for giving up so much of me for so long.
I am sad to hear that people I wanted to trust have proven so untrustworthy. And that they have seemingly changed so much.
My goodwill is slowly evaporating. I know it is not all your fault but you bear some of the responsibility for what has happened. Cowboy up. Tell me you understand where you are fucking up. Try simply saying 'I'm sorry" not "I'm sorry here are my excuses why I am not to blame"
I am a little pissed at myself for falling apart all over the place lately. I used to have this thing called a backbone. Gods only knows where it went. THere also used to be a much larger pool of patience to draw from. Well that is what therapy is for. To help me get some of that back.
While I have limited time I think I need to see more people. Or something.More doing less sitting around and playing in my own poo. There are people I miss an awful lot.
My life is missing two things right now. cake and tits. mostly cake. damn it.
Work came and went today and still no word on what the hell my job actually is. Meantime
projects hang in the balance. *sigh*
Now the good stuff..
My boys are amazingly patient with all this.
School continues to be teh sexorz. If ever there comes a day when I can go full time color me gone.
Sometimes the Universe sends you people just when you need them the most. Thank all the Gods in the Universe for bringing me just such a person today.
My friends, the really good ones, well they are the shit. seriously. :)
Cleaning has a way of making things seem better.
Heroes!!!! oh ya... go Syler go.
THanks to tedivm for making me watch Dexter. Holy shit kinda good.
The cool weather is coming and I feel the urge to get the stove fired up.
Cats are intentionally cute so we don't make earmuffs out of them. It's the only explanation.
Want ink!!
I am beinging to feel wild and reckless.. any takers?

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I'm not remaining silent anymore. You go out and spend time with your SOs much more than Lisa spends with J. She sees him once a week, if she's lucky.

After all the shit Lisa has done to help you both (for example, babysitting for you guys for free for months, sacrificing her own income to do it), show her a little more fucking consideration. This isn't the first time you've cut into her time with J. So here's what will fix the problem. When Lisa and J finally manage to make plans to spend time together, smile, say, "Have fun, everyone.", stay home, and keep your mouth shut.

I am NOT stopping him. I said "Please invite her here." I have gone directly to her to reassure her that she is welcome here, when there was concern. I schedule my time with SOs for when he is at work, so that he has at least one weekend night free every. single. goddamn. week, and I have done everything but tell him how to spend it. Oh, and by the way, when we tracked how much time we spent with SOs for a month, he had me beat by a full 24 hours.

The last several times that he's blamed on me? Why don't you ask me what I actually said to him, because it wasn't "don't spend time with your gf." I have shoved him out of the goddamn house with both feet more than once. I have nagged him to talk to her, and he ISN'T FUCKING DOING IT. Your guess is as good as mine as to why, but if you imply for one second that I am not trying my damndest to make sure he makes an effort in her direction, you are way off the mark and way out of line.

Yes, he develops sudden concern for my relationship with him during the times that he'd planned to be with Lisa, but I am not asking him for that concern, and he has access to me the rest of the time to address it. This is his MO. He will do ANYTHING to avoid confrontation when he is depressed, and this is as bad as I've seen him in over 4 years.

I offered to pay her for the sitting. When she indicated that it was a time problem, I started interviewing babysitters in under 48 hours. When he was uncommunicative on the Posi issue, I tried first to get him to speak up, then got directly involved when it was obvious that he wasn't telling me the truth, and got bitched out by him for my trouble. I went to a support group at her urging. Any request that has been made directly to me, I have worked very hard to honor.

I will not apologize for claiming some of his parenting time. All I asked was that he invite her over- and yes, I said for an overnight- at our place, so that he could be a physical adult presence for two SLEEPING children. Oh, the humanity.

J had you beat on SO time when? Certainly not within recent months. That looks like bullshit to me, unless you are counting online time, which I don't, or you count time with K, which I also wouldn't.

And would it have killed YOU to be the adult presence for the two sleeping children for a change? I know he does that for you quite often. And your own damn arguments are working against you on this one. You know J is depressed, hell, anyone that knows him knows that. You know perfectly well how infrequently the two of them spend time together. So let them spend the damn time together ALONE. Babysitting, even one's own children, is not ALONE. You couldn't have gone out the next night so everyone could have gotten what they wanted and needed? The night that J and Lisa had planned to be alone, your SOs couldn't come to you so they could have time completely alone?

I didn't bring up the babysitting Lisa did because of money. It is an example of how she went out of her way to help you both and hasn't gotten nearly the considering back she should have.

I'm sorry your life is exploding, but my concern is Lisa, and she's been getting shafted royally here. I know enough from listening to Lisa vent and cry to me about things that you know how to manipulate events to get the things that you want and need, and far to often it is at her and J's expense. How many times have you been unbelievably late getting home? How many times has that forced Lisa and J to change plans? How many times have you said something to J to get him to come home early so you could go out? How many times have you said to J, "We don't have money for X.", but then gone on retail therapy trips or run to CT?

I'm calling Bullshit.

...for a change?

You do know that I'm home with them at least 5 nights a week, and take them with me if I go out on a Saturday night at least half the time? You know that they come with me, if I am going down to CT for dinner?

And if you're so concerned about Lisa, why don't you change *your* behavior?

Any sympathy people had for you is disappearing quite fast- the more you talk the more you look like an ass here.

Yes, you watch the kids five nights a week- while Jaimey is working. Its not like he's out partying it up while you're home with the kids. You can have people come up and spend time with you on those five nights, but Jaimey can't exactly invite Lisa to work with him can he? And even still- he's WORKING. Seriously, if you honestly think those are equivalent you've lost your mind.

What I am saying is equivalent is me having people up on a weeknight (when I have the kids) and J having Lisa over on a Friday (when he has the kids.) Nothing more.

And my point is that it isn't equivalent- the fact that you think it is boggles the mind. If you worked five nights a week, hours so long that you went to bed a few hours after getting home and woke up just to go to work, then were told that you couldn't have a single night of privacy with your SO because your partner- who can have people come over five nights a week as it is- thinks she deserves 'adult time' more, how the hell would you feel?

My point is its not equivalent, and its selfish for you to try and act like it is.

Fine. I'm mean. I don't care any more.

Fine. I'm mean. I don't care any more.

Yup. And selfish, too. Deal with it.

What I am saying is equivalent is me having people up on a weeknight (when I have the kids) and J having Lisa over on a Friday (when he has the kids.) Nothing more.

I call Bullshit again. These two things aren't even remotely the same. YOU can be home SEVEN nights a week if you want to. J has exactly TWO.

Now, you know he is depressed. So instead of letting him see his SO, which just might help him feel a little better, not to mention how nice it would be for her, you ask him to have Lisa stay over with so HE can watch the kids while YOU go out. Awful nice of you.

What you should have done is been slightly less selfish, let J have Friday night, you get Saturday night, and then each of you has one night of alone time with your SOs without the kids in tow. Of course, that would leave no time for you two as a couple, but I imagine that doesn't matter to you nearly as much as it does to J.

And every week but this one, that is exactly what I have done. He gets Friday, I get Saturday. I ask for an exception that still allows him to see her, after a rotten fucking week, and I am suddenly responsible for the last two months of neglect that were his own goddamn fault?

Nope. But since you were perfectly aware of his neglect, your asking him to change things around for you once he finally DID get off his ass is even worse.

I'll be sure and time my needs to better suit you in the future.

That is considerate of you, but you really should check in with J, seeing as how he is your husband. Then, talking to Lisa would be a good idea. I don't really need to be in the loop for that, but thanks for offering.

And wouldn't this have been nice if you'd tried it BEFORE last weekend?

My behavior, eh? Like the seemingly endless rounds of processing we are going through, all in an effort to help her get her head on straight? You mean the behavior where I urge her to seek counseling? And then help her figure out ways to do it? Do you mean the way I've tried to help her find natural alternatives to pharmaceuticals since she has no insurance at the moment? Or do you mean where I don't give up on our relationship, despite the (and she will back me up on this) unfair and excessive amount of anger she has directed at me, an awful lot of which (and she will back me up on this, too) is fallout from her relationship with J?

Oh, wait, you mean the issues she has with my SO, right? About how Lisa feels that she is in competition with her, despite my reassurances that I love her and am committed to trying to help her (with actions to back it up)? And, while I am on the subject, this is a good time to mention the affect all of this stress (between Lisa and I) has had on my relationship with A. She knows how often Lisa and I have fought, she sees me hurting (I don't show it to many people), and hates feeling powerless to help me OR Lisa. I am concerned enough about Lisa that I am willing to risk damaging my other relationship to help her! Yeah, I should definitely knock that shit off.

Go ahead and pat yourself on the back; she's still hurt by your actions as often as she's hurt by J's.

The problem is still not who is to blame, the problem is what to do about it. I know, from hard experience, that I cannot do a damn thing to get J better until he decides he is ready. And right now, he does not want to get better. If you are right in saying that Lisa does, it is wonderful that you are working on ways to make that happen.

You say to let him have this alone time with her- but when he has it, he doesn't want it, because she wants him to get better and he is not ready. He runs to K, because she will not pester him about things like getting meds or going to therapy, and within two weeks she, too, is "nagging" him, because she mentioned that there is more to his job that he will have to learn.

I have, whether you believe it or not, made sure to clear Fridays for him for over two months, and asked him to please spend time with her. He gives me the same sort of half-assed excuses that I got from Pix as to why he couldn't come visit me last fall (and he admits that they were half-assed, and that the real reason was that he was depressed. Can't imagine how that could possibly apply here.) And yes, I do remember quite vividly exactly how much that hurt, so I have a pretty good idea what it feels like to be in Lisa's shoes. I even got the same sort of odd mix of support and DTMFA from Jaimey that you're giving her now.

So, I have chosen my course. I cannot afford to wait any longer for J to decide he is ready to get better. All of you who have told me to shit or get off the pot, here I am, and here is the pot. Yes, I hesitated, because I am fucking terrified and still feel like this is the greatest betrayal I have ever committed, to leave him like this. But it is what needs to happen.

And I will bet you cash money that he will continue to make half-assed excuses, and hide behind new shinies, and continue to hurt her, until such time as he is ready to buckle down and get better, whether or not I am in the picture.

I don't doubt you are right about J and his future behavior. I am not happy about the shitty way he has been treating Lisa, and the only reason I haven't said anything about it until now is because I was trying to keep the peace. All done with that now.

Sure, Lisa is hurt by my actions. And I am hurt by hers. This isn't news to either of us. We're working on our shit. Damn right I'm going to pat myself on the back. I've earned it.

What I do not understand is why I am the target of all of this stored vitriol. He is an adult, whether or not he is acting like it currently, and in spite of that I am still trying to get him to do the right thing, and have been for months.

Then my own life goes to hell, and I ask my husband to please cut me some slack, careful to ensure that it will interfere as little as possible with him doing the right thing by Lisa, and all the anger at his behaviour comes down on my head?

Yup. It does. If this was the first time this had happened, I would have let it slide. If it were even the second or third, I'd be annoyed, but wouldn't say anything. This has happened enough that the pattern is clear.

I think you are adept at manipulating events in your favor, it has hurt Lisa too many times, and I'm calling you on it.

Oh, well that explains why everything in my life is going just the way I want it to.

Gosh, if only I'd known sooner. I'm well behind on my time schedule for world domination now...

He gives me the same sort of half-assed excuses that I got from Pix as to why he couldn't come visit me last fall (and he admits that they were half-assed, and that the real reason was that he was depressed. Can't imagine how that could possibly apply here.)

So when the going gets tough you get going, eh? Color me surprised.

Do not opine on things you weren't there for. Ask J how much I agonized over finding the energy to be there for two depressed partners. Ask Julie. Ask Geekboss. Ask Lisa. I leaned on all three of them for the energy to get through this with the relationship intact. Ask my doctor, who saw my ulcer come back.

I did not simply walk off the first time he went through a bout of depression. It was more like the 37th, and for the record, he's the one who dumped me- because he could not tolerate the idea that I would stay with him despite being unhappy at that instant, because I felt that I owed him the benefit of the doubt that it was a temporary brain weasel.

No, I dumped you because you were doing nothing but dwelling on how I had treated you poorly in the past, and refusing to attempt to move past it. Because you would tell me how a behaviour was wrong, and I'd ask what I should be doing instead, and you would tell me you had no ideas. Then I'd try doing something else, and be told that that wasn't what you wanted. So I'd ask what you did want and you wouldn't tell me. Or if I *did* manage to find the right new behaviour pattern without any input from you, you would disregard the new behaviour in order to continue to bring up the old behaviour and blame me for that.

In fact, you on *multiple* occasions said things like "Yes, since we discussed X you've been better, but for the two years before that..."

So it basically came down to that you were doing nothing but telling me what I was doing wrong, and what was wrong in the discussion, while being *actively* unwilling to try and change your behaviour, *actively* unwilling to tell me what I could do to change mine, *actively* against the idea of discussing relationship problems, and you would get angry and resentful of time spent trying to discuss the relationship *even* if you suggested we discuss it, and chose the time and place. And I couldn't see any reason to be in a relationship with someone who thought so poorly of me and my actions and told me how bad I was to them, because If I was getting no joy from the relationship and they were telling me how miserable they were in it, and they didn't want to try and change it, I didn't see anything worth fighting for there.

So basically I broke up with you because you were telling me that everything I was doing was wrong, that you didn't want to discuss it, gave the impression that you were unwilling to make any changes in your behaviour for the sake of the relationship, all the fun things we had done you showed little to no interest in, and you were actively shutting me out of large parts of your life, while at the same time getting frustrated and/or angry that I wasn't part of the things you were keeping me from.

Being told that I should be willing to come up and spend time with the kids, then not being invited up, then being told that I wasn't welcome around the kids because you were afraid I'd abandon them (and the irony of being kept away from someone so I wouldn't abandon them was extra bonus dark) were just the sorts of situations that left me in a lose-lose position. And if I tried to talk about these sorts of issues it you didn't want to discuss it, or completely failed to listen to what I said.

And regarding the last-nov depression you decided to drag our relationship into an unrelated discussion over. As I stated I thought rather clearly in one of my emails, I *was* massively depressed at the time, and yes I was lying to you. But the reason I was lying to you was that I was trying to do the best thing I could for you. I was miserably horribly barely-functionally depressed, but even in that state I was trying my damnest to do whatever little things I could to to make life easier for you. Even though I was barely holding myself together, I was trying to make things a little better for you, even if it was a pale miserable attempt it was the best effort I could do and I was doing it for you. Can't imagine how that could possibly apply here.

I believe that you thought you were doing the best thing you could for me in November. J believed that he was doing the best thing for Lisa, by staying away. That doesn't make either of you correct, even if I know that your intentions were, indeed, honorable. Nor does it make it hurt any less for the person on the receiving end.

I did not, by any stretch of the imagination, walk away from our relationship the first time you required extra care and feeding. As to my relative ability to forgive, it is on some level unfair to you because the visceral hurt that I felt was closely tied to being hurt in the exact same way by J's depression- rubbing salt in an open wound, effectively.

This is how my mind works: I can overlook slights, up to a point. If I do not speak up before the point where I am desperately hurt, which I am still learning to do- and being told I'm wrong to do, by Mike, in this thread- then it does not matter if the behavior changes. This is what happened with you, and I am sorry that I did not know how to ask for things, and I am sorry that there are switches in my mind that cannot be reset once they are tripped. This is what happened with J as well, and I have given him the same apology.

The best I can do for myself and anyone I get involved with in the future is to keep practicing asking for what I need before the situation is desperate enough that I resort to taking it by unhealthy means. That's exactly what I tried to do on Friday, and it is reactions like this that kept me from knowing how to do it for 29 years.

If I do not speak up before the point where I am desperately hurt, which I am still learning to do- and being told I'm wrong to do, by Mike, in this thread-

This statement tells me that you completely missed the point I made repeatedly. I did not say that you are wrong to "speak up", whatever the hell that is supposed to mean. I said that you were wrong to ask J to bring Lisa home last Friday so you could go out. You KNEW they hadn't spent any time together, alone or otherwise, for a long time, and horning in on that time was a shitty thing to do, regardless of why. THAT is the point.

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